In commemoration of Yom HaShoah...


We at least will never forget, even if the world wants to forget...

You are wrong. The world doesn't want to forget. There may however be a difference. You say: "Shoa, never again." The world may prefer to say: "Genocide, never again." From our side, at least, our formula seems more inclusive.

Edited for personal attack—Auerbach

Pastaneta wrote:

As usual Gulpy doesn't catch the point.

But then he never does...

And he belittle the Shoah... Not unexpected from a rabid Portuguese antisemite.

You will excuse me if I feel that, for instance, killing six million Africans because they were black, would be as bad as killing six million other people because they were Jewish. If you feel any different it is up to you to explain why.

A seven-part video (German with English subtitles):

Quote:

Yom Hashoah Day: Interview with a Nazi SS Officer

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/04/yom-hashoah-day-interview-with-a-nazi-ss-officer.html

Interview with a Nazi SS officer - Franz Suchomel - Discussion of Treblinka gas chambers.

These videos are difficult to watch, but you must. It's one thing to hear of the atrocity in broad historical strokes, it's quite another to hear the executioner describe in devastating detail the horror and unspeakable machinations of unimaginable evil...

Gulp wrote:

Pastaneta wrote:

As usual Gulpy doesn't catch the point.

But then he never does...

And he belittle the Shoah... Not unexpected from a rabid Portuguese antisemite.

You will excuse me if I feel that, for instance, killing six million Africans because they were black, would be as bad as killing six million other people because they were Jewish. If you feel any different it is up to you to explain why.

Gulp,

It seems that there are two things you do not understand.


1) It is NOT the case that Israelis (and Jews in general) are selfishly caring only about their own suffering. In fact, let me mention now the refugees from Darfur that Israel accepted, and these refugees are being given Israeli citizenship.
Please click here:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/901138.html

Also during the siege of Sarajevo, when the Bosnian Serbs were determined to exterminate the Muslims, Israel accepted a plane load of Muslim Bosnian refugees (temporarily until the end of the war.)

And by the way, during the siege of Sarajevo, Clinton made it illegal to send any military help to the Muslim Sarajevo people even when the Serbs were eating them alive, but a Jewish guy in California, gave a significant portion of his net worth to a Bosnian fund that was clandestinely buying and sending weapons for the Bosnians under siege. This was illegal, and he could have gone to jail. And guess what, a few years later, when the tension between Israel and the Palestinians started, the Bosnian Muslims burned the Israeli flag. Thanks.


2) The point of the Holocaust Day in Israel, is not to feel self-pity, or to ask the world to feel sorry for us because of what happened in the past, but to reinforce the determination of the Israelis that next time they won't be taken alive. This is a qualitatively different attitude, and I believe that this is precisely why you are opposed to it because you want the Jews to be meek and at other people's mercy. In fact, even Fritzi (the token Aryan member of this forum) unequivocally affirmed Israel's right to defend itself. In his own words, Fritzi said to the Israelis: "Crush your enemy". (I suspect that he picked up this sentence from the movie "Conan The Barbarian" (1982), where the protagonist (Arnold Schwarzenegger) gives a speech and utters these words.) But of course, Fritzi is also wrong, he is trying to manipulate Pastaneta by saying "Don't you want to exterminate the Palestinians, etc...", trying to make Israelis become like Nazis, which was his ulterior motive... But the bottom line is that at least Fritzi acknowledged the right of Israel to defend itself.

And you also wrote:

Quote:

From our side, at least, our formula seems more inclusive.

I fully agree that the same formula should apply to every group of people, and the formula includes every nation's right to defend itself. The whole formula should be applied to every group, not just part of it.



Last edited by HAL9000 on Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

Sadly the memory of the holocaust will fade over time. Not in our lifetimes, but eventually. History has known plenty of genocides, but there is always another one. Maybe the next one will be against somebody Pastaneta dislikes, and it will be cause for celebration rather than a commemoration of a tragedy.

Pastaneta, may the Lord console you.



HALINA BIRENBAUM


THE TREES ARE SILENT


The trees have seen and heard a lot
Have imbibed and covered much
But even when rustling
They remain silent

They would not tell us about
That what they have witnessed

They tell us
Neither about the wonders
That happened in their shadows
Nor the horrors

They climb toward light
Like we they are thirsty of sun
Dye in darkness
Wither of atrocities

And do keep silent – always remain silent

With their shade of secret they shroud
Wipe out equally well the traces of
Love and crime

... And in Auschwitz too
The trees grew and climbed to the sky
Imbibing into themselves
The screams the fire the smoke

And they did stubbornly keep silent

And I
When being marched amongst them
Found in them signals of life
The proof of existence
That was forbidden to me

I stared at the trees
Breathing in their fresh smell mixed
With the smell of burnt human beings

With my eyes I passed on them
My desires
My cry for life
For the faith
That life be
Also allowed to me

I prayed that the traces be preserved
Of my existence once in this world...

Many like me confessed to the trees
Begged for remembrance
Wanted to climb up to their tops
To fly away

Traces of those have vanished
Have been blown away
Dispersed

The trees saw and heard all these
But in their habit
Kept growing and getting green
And they kept silence

They did not lament over human suffering
Perhaps they even laughed at it?

Became drunk with the stench of burned people
With a diabolic spell got bewitched?
And were turned into something different
Than had been until then?

The trees have perpetually been silent

To me, the little one, it was granted to survive
In order to tell
About the German Nazi monsters
About their victims and the witness-trees

About trees' keeping silent
In the face of every sight
Of every calamity

Yet
I did love and still do love trees
To their shades I confide
My pain my longing my daydreams

In their rustle I unite
With my loved ones
Doomed and perished

And with the world
That once had existed
but has been destroyed
And I within it – We

In the solemn silence of the trees
Their inveterate mysterious keeping silent
THEN there was hope

And today
A consolation

HAL9000 wrote:

Gulp wrote:

Pastaneta wrote:

As usual Gulpy doesn't catch the point.

But then he never does...

And he belittle the Shoah... Not unexpected from a rabid Portuguese antisemite.

You will excuse me if I feel that, for instance, killing six million Africans because they were black, would be as bad as killing six million other people because they were Jewish. If you feel any different it is up to you to explain why.

Gulp,

It seems that there are two things you do not understand.


1) It is NOT the case that Israelis (and Jews in general) are selfishly caring only about their own suffering. In fact, let me mention now the refugees from Darfur that Israel accepted, and these refugees are being given Israeli citizenship.
Please click here:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/901138.html

Also during the siege of Sarajevo, when the Bosnian Serbs were determined to exterminate the Muslims, Israel accepted a plane load of Muslim Bosnian refugees (temporarily until the end of the war.)

And by the way, during the siege of Sarajevo, Clinton made it illegal to send any military help to the Muslim Sarajevo people even when the Serbs were eating them alive, but a Jewish guy in California, gave a significant portion of his net worth to a Bosnian fund that was clandestinely buying and sending weapons for the Bosnians under siege. This was illegal, and he could have gone to jail. And guess what, a few years later, when the tension between Israel and the Palestinians started, the Bosnians burned the Israeli flag. Thanks.


2) The point of the Holocaust Day in Israel, is not to feel self-pity, or to ask the world to feel sorry for us because of what happened in the past, but to reinforce the determination of the Israelis that next time they won't be taken alive. This is a qualitatively different attitude, and I believe that this is precisely why you are opposed to it because you want the Jews to be meek and at other people's mercy. In fact, even Fritzi (the token Aryan member of this forum) unequivocally affirmed Israel's right to defend itself. In his own words, Fritzi said to the Israelis: "Crush your enemy". (I suspect that he picked up this sentence from the movie "Conan The Barbarian" (1982), where the protagonist (Arnold Schwarzenegger) gives a speech and utters these words.) But of course, Fritzi is also wrong, he is trying to manipulate Pastaneta by saying "Don't you want to exterminate the Palestinians, etc...", trying to make Israelis become like Nazis, which was his ulterior motive... But the bottom line is that at least Fritzi acknowledged the right of Israel to defend itself.

And you also wrote:

Quote:

From our side, at least, our formula seems more inclusive.

I fully agree that the same formula should apply to every group of people, and the formula includes every nation's right to defend itself. The whole formula should be applied to every group, not just part of it.

1. I'm sure there are thousands of compassionate Jews all over the world who might even be willing to die to save a non-Jew's life. That's not the point and I didn't write anything to show that I ever doubted the humane side of lots of Jews. I just feel that, sometimes, some Jews seem to think that the Shoah was the only genocide ever, or that it is on a different level from all other acts of genocide. Personaly I can't imagine a more horrifying act of bestiality than the holocaust, and I still remember the horror I felt the first time I saw the pictures of mass graves with the bodies of thousands of naked Jewish men, women and children. But I would have felt the same horror if those were not the bodies of Jews.

2. I fully recognize the right of Jews to fight for their lives and to make sure such a horror will never happen again. And if any Jew is ever threatened again in the same manner, and I am around, I personaly will stand at his side and fight for his life and dignity. But I do not recognize Israeli's right to kill innocent people in the course of exercising their defense rights. The holocaust is not a blank cheque allowing Israel to kill anyone who crosses their path, nor to deny the basic rights of the Palestinians.

The lesson for all Jews is you don’t go quietly into the night!

Throw yourself under the trains, take as many of the enemy as possible, lay down and don’t cooperate.

Consider:

The Black Knight of Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

From a masterpiece of Yankee lit;“ from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee”



Think like a warrior die like a warrior!

Fritzi,

You have it exactly right. Several members of my family fought as partisans in Belarus, not with the Bielski band but a similar group between Slonim and Bialystock. There wasn't a scholar in my family. They made potash and glass, fixed locks and guns, smithied metal. That's one of the reason my family are Jewish gun nuts. Fight to the death, and take as many of the %$%$*(@(@*'s with you as you can.

Spengler wrote:

Fritzi,

You have it exactly right. Several members of my family fought as partisans in Belarus, not with the Bielski band but a similar group between Slonim and Bialystock. There wasn't a scholar in my family. They made potash and glass, fixed locks and guns, smithied metal. That's one of the reason my family are Jewish gun nuts. Fight to the death, and take as many of the %$%$*(@(@*'s with you as you can.

Defiance was a very good movie about the Bielski brothers, with a lot of realism. The movie itself was made in the forests of Lithuania, not far from Belarus, because of logistic reasons. I was running in one of those forests last year when I was visiting. The only complaint about this movie was that the final tank battle scene did not happen. Bielski band was intentionally fighting small scale guerrilla battles, instead of fighting organized large groups they were ambushing smaller numbers of German troops deep in the forest, where they had a decisive advantage.

It is impossible (and wrong) to say which specific Holocaust movie is the "best", but I believe that the a very detailed movie about life in the interior of Auscwitz, is Triumph of the Spirit (1989, Willem Dafoe). This movie is the true story of the Greek Jewish boxing champion Salamo Arouch in Auschwitz, who survived the ordeal. Nazis forced Arouch to entertain their officers by fighting as a gladiator. He now lives in Israel. The relatively unusual thing about this movie is that this time the focus is on the Southern European Sephardic Jews (my ancestors), who were less known. In this movie, the different cultures and interaction between Greek, Polish and German Jews, as well as Gypsies is shown.

http://www.amazon.com/Triumph-Spirit-Willem-Dafoe/dp/B00005V9HN/



Last edited by HAL9000 on Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:34 am; edited 3 times in total

Plenty of Jews fought. Plenty of Christians or other non-Jewish Europeans were herded docilely into the camps. Willingness to defend yourself isn't really an issue in the case of the holocaust.

Lyle wrote:

Plenty of Jews fought. Plenty of Christians or other non-Jewish Europeans were herded docilely into the camps. Willingness to defend yourself isn't really an issue in the case of the holocaust.

Actually, as a percentage of the Jews who were killed, very few Jews fought in the Holocaust, due to the misunderstanding that they imagined that this was once again the traditional, standard antisemitism in Europe, and that the Nazis were only using antisemitism to get power. It turned that what many Nazis had in mind was different, this time they came to power to get the Jews.

The Swiss psychologist Alice Miller is a leading expert on the behavior of oppressed and abused groups of people, and at the end of the 19th century, the German educational system was very oppressive and abusive.

In her book, For Your Own Good , Alice Miller shows how oppressive the educational system was in Germany before World War II, and argues that this contributed to the Holocaust. There is also a detailed chapter on the childhood of Adolf Hitler, where it is shown how his father abused and humiliated him, which I believe, was the root cause of Hitler's behavior.
http://www.amazon.com/Your-Own-Good-Child-Rearing-Violence/dp/0374522693/



Last edited by HAL9000 on Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:15 pm; edited 2 times in total

HAL9000 wrote:

Lyle wrote:

Plenty of Jews fought. Plenty of Christians or other non-Jewish Europeans were herded docilely into the camps. Willingness to defend yourself isn't really an issue in the case of the holocaust.

Actually, as a percentage of the Jews who were killed, very few Jews fought in the Holocaust, due to the misunderstanding that they imagined that this was once again the traditional, standard antisemitism in Europe, and that the HItler was only using antisemitism to get power. It turned that what many Nazis had in mind was different, this time they came to power to get the Jews. This time there was something original.

I'm referring not only to partisans but Jews fighting in the allied armies. For that matter there were Jews fighting in the German army in the previous war. My point is that Jews fight, or don't, just like any other group.

...................

HAL9000 wrote:

It is impossible (and wrong) to say which specific Holocaust movie is the "best"

Korczak.

A meditation.

Górecki Symphony #3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miLV0o4AhE4&feature=channel_page

Quote:

That's one of the reason my family are Jewish gun nuts.

I am against gun control for the same reason. And my father, until the day he died, was against it... He had a lot of fights on this with my two cousins who are Californian left wing.

Quote:

where it is shown how his father abused and humiliated him, which I believe, was the root cause of Hitler's behavior.

Psychological BS... The root cause was that Hitler was an evil nut. All the rest is invented bgy the BS industry today to justify whatever.