Quack Medicine and Junk Science

Idle talk, high opinion, low gossip and et cetera.

Re: In this corner we have "MYSPACE

Postby Sparky » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:02 am

Marcus wrote:
Sparky wrote:Good luck with the whole alternative medicine thing. The witch doctor will see you now...

You're pulling my leg, right? MySpace? . . :lol: Deep stuff indeed . . :lol: Try the sites below:

Image

What Is Complementary and Alternative Medicine?

Or:

The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine

Or read:

The Social Transformation of American Medicine: The rise of a sovereign profession and the making of a vast industry

Yes, I am. There is a word for alternative medicine that that can be shown to work by randomised control trials - medicine. For the rest, it it can't demonstrate efficacy - why even bother considering it? Why the need to defend hokum and bead jiggling?
User avatar
Sparky
 
Posts: 1439
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:37 pm

Postby Yukon Cornelius » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:07 am

Colonel Sun wrote:Quite right. It's interesting that some people are not able to discern the difference.

Oh, stop it -- you ducked both my point about the doc not giving my daughter specific care, and fluids/rest.


We didn't get where are today via a either bureaucratic mechanism, or pandering to patients. We're somewhere other than worshiping at the altar of Sacred Science & Evidence.

Look out below.
User avatar
Yukon Cornelius
 
Posts: 665
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:59 pm
Location: Earth

You missed the point . . .

Postby Marcus » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:08 am

Sparky wrote:Why the need to defend hokum and bead jiggling?

This will let you understand what's at issue here:

Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:The dispute is irresolvable. To an outsider, the scientific materialist looks like a closed-minded fundamentalist dogmatically (even angrily) asserting the sole primacy and validity of his worldview and on a holy mission to destroy anyone who disagrees. To a scientific materialist, all others seem like the dogmatists that have clung to old beliefs and inhibited the progress of mankind since time immemorial. Furthermore, scientists are something like psychopathic serial killers in their single-minded and obsessive need to seek out problems and solve them (and thank God for that). When you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail, ya know? And they don't take kindly to people telling them that some problems are immutable, unsolvable, non-rational mysteries. It is not only a personal insult but, since most scientists are staunch humanists, it is an insult and challenge issued to mankind from the depths of the universe itself; another defense thrown up as nature attempts to elude its master. . .
User avatar
Marcus
 
Posts: 3749
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:08 am

Postby Colonel Sun » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:17 am

Yukon Cornelius wrote:
Colonel Sun wrote:Quite right. It's interesting that some people are not able to discern the difference.

Oh, stop it -- you ducked both my point about the doc not giving my daughter specific care, and fluids/rest.

We didn't get where are today via a either bureaucratic mechanism, or pandering to patients. We're somewhere other than worshiping at the altar of Sacred Science & Evidence.

Look out below.


Why did you take her to a hospital that practices scientific evidence-based medicine? You should have taken her to a so-called alternative medicine quack instead and given her a high colonic.
Last edited by Colonel Sun on Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:26 am, edited 4 times in total.
User avatar
Colonel Sun
 
Posts: 14417
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:14 am
Location: The seven seas.

Re: In this corner we have "MYSPACE

Postby Colonel Sun » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:18 am

Sparky wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Sparky wrote:Good luck with the whole alternative medicine thing. The witch doctor will see you now...

You're pulling my leg, right? MySpace? . . :lol: Deep stuff indeed . . :lol: Try the sites below:

Image

What Is Complementary and Alternative Medicine?

Or:

The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine

Or read:

The Social Transformation of American Medicine: The rise of a sovereign profession and the making of a vast industry

Yes, I am. There is a word for alternative medicine that that can be shown to work by randomised control trials - medicine. For the rest, it it can't demonstrate efficacy - why even bother considering it? Why the need to defend hokum and bead jiggling?


Some people seem to need to believe in magic and other voodoo that they do.
User avatar
Colonel Sun
 
Posts: 14417
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:14 am
Location: The seven seas.

Postby Yukon Cornelius » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:26 am

Colonel Sun wrote:
Why did you take her to a hospital? You should have taken her to a so-called alternative medicine quack instead and given her a high colonic instead.


Think about it this way -- you're analogically cooing, swooning, and babbling over all the technology it takes to make Fruity Coco-Pebbles, or Jimmy Dean's chocolate chip sausage on a stick.

Don't mind Prozac nation, or the obesity epidemic...
Last edited by Yukon Cornelius on Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Yukon Cornelius
 
Posts: 665
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:59 pm
Location: Earth

Re: You missed the point . . .

Postby Sparky » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:27 am

Marcus wrote:
Sparky wrote:Why the need to defend hokum and bead jiggling?

This will let you understand what's at issue here:

Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:The dispute is irresolvable. To an outsider, the scientific materialist looks like a closed-minded fundamentalist dogmatically (even angrily) asserting the sole primacy and validity of his worldview and on a holy mission to destroy anyone who disagrees. To a scientific materialist, all others seem like the dogmatists that have clung to old beliefs and inhibited the progress of mankind since time immemorial. Furthermore, scientists are something like psychopathic serial killers in their single-minded and obsessive need to seek out problems and solve them (and thank God for that). When you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail, ya know? And they don't take kindly to people telling them that some problems are immutable, unsolvable, non-rational mysteries. It is not only a personal insult but, since most scientists are staunch humanists, it is an insult and challenge issued to mankind from the depths of the universe itself; another defense thrown up as nature attempts to elude its master. . .

Surely you draw the line somewhere? Homoeopathy? Crystal healing? Ear candling? Ass candling?
User avatar
Sparky
 
Posts: 1439
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:37 pm

Postby Colonel Sun » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:30 am

Yukon Cornelius wrote:
Colonel Sun wrote:
Why did you take her to a hospital? You should have taken her to a so-called alternative medicine quack instead and given her a high colonic instead.


Think about it this way -- you're analogically cooing, swooning, and babbling over all the technology it takes to make Fruity Coco-Pebbles, or Jimmy Dean's chocolate chip sausage on a stick.



Ignorance is a type of bliss, I suppose.

My sympathies to the medical doctor that had to deal with you. :wink:

Yukon Cornelius wrote:Don't mind Prozac nation, or the obesity epidemic...


That's your nation's problems, not mine. Problems which have to do with cultural beliefs and life style choices, not science, in general, and evidence based medicine, in particular.
User avatar
Colonel Sun
 
Posts: 14417
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:14 am
Location: The seven seas.

Re: You missed the point . . .

Postby Marcus » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:40 am

Yukon Cornelius wrote:Oh, stop it -- you ducked both my point about the doc not giving my daughter specific care, and fluids/rest.

We didn't get where are today via a either bureaucratic mechanism, or pandering to patients. We're somewhere other than worshiping at the altar of Sacred Science & Evidence.

Look out below.

YC is absolutely right, and anyone who doubts it should read The China Study, especially "Part 4 - Science - The Dark Side."

*****************

Sparky wrote:Surely you draw the line somewhere? Homoeopathy? Crystal healing? Ear candling? Ass candling?

I do indeed draw the line . . your snotty posts for starters . . moving on to crap like "Ignorance is a type of bliss, I suppose," "My sympathies to the medical doctor that had to deal with you," "Some people seem to need to believe in magic and other voodoo that they do," "You should have taken her to a so-called alternative medicine quack instead and given her a high colonic," and other such stupid, juvenile doo-doo . . :oops:
User avatar
Marcus
 
Posts: 3749
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:08 am

Postby Yukon Cornelius » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:44 am

Colonel Sun wrote:
Yukon Cornelius wrote:
Colonel Sun wrote:
Why did you take her to a hospital? You should have taken her to a so-called alternative medicine quack instead and given her a high colonic instead.


Think about it this way -- you're analogically cooing, swooning, and babbling over all the technology it takes to make Fruity Coco-Pebbles, or Jimmy Dean's chocolate chip sausage on a stick.



Ignorance is a type of bliss, I suppose.

My sympathies to the medical doctor that had to deal with you. :wink:

Yukon Cornelius wrote:Don't mind Prozac nation, or the obesity epidemic...


That's your nation's problems, not mine. Problems which have to do with cultural beliefs and life style choices, not science, in general, and evidence based medicine, in particular.

Alright, but I'm sticking with my appropriate care thesis. Wacky diet and exercise, no overmedication -- whatever wild extremes it takes [here in America].



















You have heard that there might be something wrong with the health care system here, yes? (and it's not from obsessing with results and evidence.)
User avatar
Yukon Cornelius
 
Posts: 665
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:59 pm
Location: Earth

Postby Colonel Sun » Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:01 am

Yukon Cornelius wrote:
Colonel Sun wrote:
Yukon Cornelius wrote:
Colonel Sun wrote:
Why did you take her to a hospital? You should have taken her to a so-called alternative medicine quack instead and given her a high colonic instead.


Think about it this way -- you're analogically cooing, swooning, and babbling over all the technology it takes to make Fruity Coco-Pebbles, or Jimmy Dean's chocolate chip sausage on a stick.



Ignorance is a type of bliss, I suppose.

My sympathies to the medical doctor that had to deal with you. :wink:

Yukon Cornelius wrote:Don't mind Prozac nation, or the obesity epidemic...


That's your nation's problems, not mine. Problems which have to do with cultural beliefs and life style choices, not science, in general, and evidence based medicine, in particular.

Alright, but I'm sticking with my appropriate care thesis. Wacky diet and exercise, no overmedication -- whatever wild extremes it takes [here in America].



Good diet and proper exercise are always advisable.

Overmedication should be avoided, as long as it a properly informed decision.

The example you quoted does not appear to be such a case, as blot clots are a legitimate concern.

Yukon Cornelius wrote:
You have heard that there might be something wrong with the health care system here, yes? (and it's not from obsessing with results and evidence.)


Sure. A significant part of the population can't afford it and does not have access.
Last edited by Colonel Sun on Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Colonel Sun
 
Posts: 14417
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:14 am
Location: The seven seas.

Re: You missed the point . . .

Postby Sparky » Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:14 am

Marcus wrote:
Yukon Cornelius wrote:Oh, stop it -- you ducked both my point about the doc not giving my daughter specific care, and fluids/rest.

We didn't get where are today via a either bureaucratic mechanism, or pandering to patients. We're somewhere other than worshiping at the altar of Sacred Science & Evidence.

Look out below.

YC is absolutely right, and anyone who doubts it should read The China Study, especially "Part 4 - Science - The Dark Side."

*****************

Sparky wrote:Surely you draw the line somewhere? Homoeopathy? Crystal healing? Ear candling? Ass candling?

I do indeed draw the line . . your snotty posts for starters . . moving on to crap like "Ignorance is a type of bliss, I suppose," "My sympathies to the medical doctor that had to deal with you," "Some people seem to need to believe in magic and other voodoo that they do," "You should have taken her to a so-called alternative medicine quack instead and given her a high colonic," and other such stupid, juvenile doo-doo . . :oops:
Marvellously pompous, but you didn't answer the question. Surely there are treatments offered by alternative medical practitioners which you simply don't believe in, or can't accept? Assuming there are some, I'd be interested to find out what the basis of your lack of acceptance is.
User avatar
Sparky
 
Posts: 1439
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:37 pm

Re: You missed the point . . .

Postby Marcus » Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:33 am

Colonel Sun wrote:. . as long as it a properly informed decision. .

Which is your opinionated definition of what constitutes "properly informed"?

Can't you get it through your head that not everyone agrees with your definition? Can't you understand that to some of us a "scientific materialist looks like a closed-minded fundamentalist dogmatically (even angrily) asserting the sole primacy and validity of his worldview"? Over and over and over . . .

******************

Sparky wrote:Marvellously pompous, but you didn't answer the question. Surely there are treatments offered by alternative medical practitioners which you simply don't believe in, or can't accept? Assuming there are some, I'd be interested to find out what the basis of your lack of acceptance is.

Of course there are treatments I'd decline, but given the current rude and idiotic tone of this thread, I'll keep my opinions to myself. Sparky, this thread has become boringly repetitious. JN summed up the discussion nicely . ." the dispute [here] is irresolvable" yet it goes on and on and on . .
User avatar
Marcus
 
Posts: 3749
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:08 am

Re: You missed the point . . .

Postby Colonel Sun » Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:37 am

Marcus wrote:
Colonel Sun wrote:. . as long as it a properly informed decision. .

Which is your opinionated definition of what constitutes "properly informed"?

Can't you get it through your head that not everyone agrees with your definition? Can't you understand that to some of us a "scientific materialist looks like a closed-minded fundamentalist dogmatically (even angrily) asserting the sole primacy and validity of his worldview"? Over and over and over . . .

******************



Who appointed you this thread's dictator?

Marcus wrote:
Sparky wrote:Marvellously pompous, but you didn't answer the question. Surely there are treatments offered by alternative medical practitioners which you simply don't believe in, or can't accept? Assuming there are some, I'd be interested to find out what the basis of your lack of acceptance is.

Of course there are treatments I'd decline, but given the current rude and idiotic tone of this thread, I'll keep my opinions to myself.


Lamest pretext for not answering a legitimate question I've read in a long time.

Marcus wrote:Sparky, this tread has become boringly repetitious. JN summed up the discussion nicely . ." the dispute [here] is irresolvable" yet it goes on and on and on . .


Is someone forcing you to read it and post to it?
User avatar
Colonel Sun
 
Posts: 14417
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:14 am
Location: The seven seas.

Postby Yukon Cornelius » Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:45 am

Colonel Sun wrote:Sure. A significant part of the population can't afford it and does not have access.

How about ranking "last when it comes to infant mortality and deaths before age 75 that were potentially preventable"?

Unless infant mortality is not a problem, or worth adopting best practices based on science and evidence -- from Europe (or even Mexico would be an improvement.)
User avatar
Yukon Cornelius
 
Posts: 665
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:59 pm
Location: Earth

Postby waxwing001 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:58 am

I wonder and hope by now the main issue is about how much you love your loved ones and are dedicated to care for them willing to spend a long night in emergence room serving their needs and this inspires staff in emergence room to continue their dedication after some sleep despite being burnt out some weeks . Go in busy city emergence room for all night and you see keeping this care in your presence toward victims is an art and a test of your endurance as so many helpless humans enter staff following the rules from practice is all you can hope for at times. :D
waxwing001
 
Posts: 10001
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:33 pm

Re: You missed the point . . .

Postby Marcus » Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:05 am

Colonel Sun wrote:Who appointed you this thread's dictator?

Lamest pretext for not answering a legitimate question I've read in a long time.

Is someone forcing you to read it and post to it?


Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:. . To an outsider, the scientific materialist looks like a closed-minded fundamentalist dogmatically (even angrily) asserting the sole primacy and validity of his worldview and on a holy mission to destroy anyone who disagrees. . .
“I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels.” —John Calvin
User avatar
Marcus
 
Posts: 3749
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:08 am

Postby kmich » Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:11 am

Alright, I will state outright that I have no intention on getting involved in the seemingly endless, pointless pissing contests between Col Sun and Marcus et al. So keep me out of it, please.

Thank you.

In my world, medical practice is as much of an art as it is a science. Any competent medical practitioner has to keep up on the peer reviewed research to know what the hell he or she is doing and to stay up to date. A respect for science and the findings of solid research and ongoing education is required for any practitioner. So I have reserved at least 2, usually typically dull, days each month to review my journals to keep on top of stuff.

But the fact that you know your science does not make you a good practitioner. I have known many an academic who knows the research and literature inside out but who pretty much sucks in their clinical and surgical practice. That is because every patient, every situation, every organ, blood vessel, artery, is different, and it typically takes many years of experience to know what to do in an instant of decision with those to save a life, a heart, a brain, or a limb.

Medical and surgical practice is an art based upon your experience and the quality of your clinical observations and reasoning. When I work with residents, I often don't give a sh-t about what research studies they cite. I want to know what they heard and understood from the examination of their patients and their review of their radiological and laboratory studies. I want to know what hypotheses and strategies they have devised from those experiences and reviews and why. Tell me what you think and why about this particular person and what needs to be done next, not what "blank blank et al" published in the latest Journal of Vascular Surgery, the NEJM, or whatever.

After observing me in surgery, they ask me sometimes why I did X or Y procedure with a patient, but, to me, it just seemed like the obvious thing to do, but I cannot cite an article to support what I did. How the patient did later proves I was right or wrong, and fortunately for my patients, I am usually right. Some residents never seem to get that line of thinking. Oh well, I am sure they can find some academic post in a medical school somewhere where they can cite Duffus et al or whatever to their wowed medical students.

Alternative medicine? Much of it is probably crap, but I will keep an open mind about it and keep an eye on it for myself.

Carry on....
User avatar
kmich
 
Posts: 605
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:54 am

Postby Yukon Cornelius » Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:43 am

kmich:

I don't think there is an inordinate problem in America with medical procedures, as such -- the mechanics of pinning a hip, or heart surgery, or removing an appendix aren't the problem.

The problem, in the case of infant mortality -- or Prozac Nation -- is the needless meddling/intervention that goes on, which brings more and more risk as the interventions increase. I'd argue that with infant mortality, it's simply that -- wanting to schedule C-sections, or make birth a painless "procedure". Once you start doping up the Mom and baby, what was once a relatively straightforward event becomes a funhouse of mirrors.

So here we are in last place. That business with the doc giving my daughter blood thinners (or anticoagulants) without my knowledge belies a much more serious problem. For one, apparently it was so routine it didn't occur to him to tell me, and two -- it was not care that my daughter needed, and three -- he wouldn't have done it, given the choice. Not good.
User avatar
Yukon Cornelius
 
Posts: 665
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:59 pm
Location: Earth

Postby berzerk savant » Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:15 am

kmich, I wish you were my doctor. I don't know how to compliment you more , considering circumstances .

Within the past couple of months , I have known three people with kidney stones severe enough to consider emergency surgery that had a complete change of medical circumstance within six hours after drinking a big glass of half lemon juice, half water . Stones not passed, simply gone, dissolved. The basis for that seems reasonable, but somehow I doubt that's what a doctor would prescribe.
User avatar
berzerk savant
 
Posts: 10769
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:28 am
Location: Waiting for the worms to call

PreviousNext

Return to Foo

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

  • SIDEBAR
  • Latest Forum Topics