Obama could stir a Tea Party crisis

Discussion of Spengler's writings and ideas

Re: But what if

Postby oPseudonym » Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:32 pm

Avicenna wrote:
oPseudonym wrote:From Northern Observer, this is an echo of Herbert Hoover:
from the best littlerature I've read this is a balance sheet recession. Debts must be liquidated for growth to start again. That mean letting shareholders fail, letting banks fall, recapitalising under federal trusteeship and starting over again. Faster forclusure, faster bankcruptcy, debt annullment, debt abatement and debt forgiveness.


There is nothing new or clever about any of it. It was all tried and failed many times, until the greatest failure of all in the Great Depression and WWII.


Of course, it was Hoover's Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon who urged him to "liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate" -- advice which Hoover, by his own account, outright rejected in favor of interventionism.

But other members of the Administration, also having economic responsibilities — Under Secretary of the Treasury Mills, Governor Young of the Reserve Board, Secretary of Commerce Lamont and Secretary of Agriculture Hyde — believed with me that we should use the powers of government to cushion the situation.

-- The Memoirs of Herbert Hoover


And Hoover did exactly that - by expanding credit, increasing government spending to an unprecedented degree, running up huge deficits, exacting promises from industrial leaders not to cut wages, bailing out the farmers, and building massive public works projects.


I see how it is -- Hoover was a failure, therefore, he must have disagreed with you politically.

It's a good argument, if your object is to ease cognitive dissonance.
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Postby Avicenna » Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:26 pm

oPseudonym wrote:I see how it is -- Hoover was a failure, therefore, he must have disagreed with you politically.

It's a good argument, if your object is to ease cognitive dissonance.


Um, no. I didn't say anything about my political beliefs. Merely corrected you by pointing out that Northern Observer's quote about liquidating debt is not in any way an "echo" of Hoover, but rather an echo of his Treasury Secretary, whose advice Hoover explicitly ignored.

Only matters if you care about facts, I guess.
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Postby oPseudonym » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:41 pm

Avicenna wrote:
oPseudonym wrote:I see how it is -- Hoover was a failure, therefore, he must have disagreed with you politically.

It's a good argument, if your object is to ease cognitive dissonance.


Um, no. I didn't say anything about my political beliefs. Merely corrected you by pointing out that Northern Observer's quote about liquidating debt is not in any way an "echo" of Hoover, but rather an echo of his Treasury Secretary, whose advice Hoover explicitly ignored.

Only matters if you care about facts, I guess.


It is the policy Hoover followed, since he he did nothing effective against the Great Depression, and it is also the policy Tea Party types today advocate.
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Postby Mr. Perfect » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:47 pm

Here is a look at the policy that Democrats followed:

Image[/img]
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Postby lzzrdgrrl » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:17 pm

Imma got a BIC finepoint and Imma gonna use it. Less partisan description.........

Financial journalist Howard Gold is devoting his blog to stirring the pot.....
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Here's one happy Tea Partier

Postby Faxogle » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:38 am

In spite of the caterwauling from fellow Tea-Partiers (e.g., Tom Blumer at PajamasMedia.com--lots of links), I think we have done pretty well for ourselves. We've avoided the Spenglerian trap...
President Barack Obama's best hope of re-election lies in provoking Republicans to force the United States into technical default, engineering a brief but severe financial crisis in order to appear as crisis-manager-in-chief.

... while keeping the fire alive.

I agree with Steven Hayward, who observes from Britain.
I understand why Tea Partiers and even conservatives who drink decaf might think the debt ceiling deal isn’t very good, even allowing for the current strength of forces on the political chess board. But judging from the UK papers on offer this morning here at Heathrow airport, Obama has had his head handed to him.
...
...we have the best of both worlds politically: a deal that leaves the Tea Party unsatisfied and therefore fired up for the next battles and election cycle, and a demoralized liberal base that can’t come to grips with the fact that socialism is over because we’ve run out of other people’s money.


Sorry, but the php suffix messes with the link; if this doesn't work, copy and paste: http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2 ... this-obama’s-“read-my-lips”-moment.php
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Postby Faxogle » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:40 am

P.S.

Mr. Perfect, I love your graphic, but can you fix it so it doesn't screw with the page width?

TIA
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Palin weighs in

Postby Faxogle » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:53 am

Sarah Palin talks with Greta Susteren about whether the debt ceiling deal was victory (starts about 3:15).
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Postby oPseudonym » Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:19 am

lzzrdgrrl wrote:Imma got a BIC finepoint and Imma gonna use it. Less partisan description.........

Financial journalist Howard Gold is devoting his blog to stirring the pot.....


Take one look at the Tea Party. These are the people running the country now, and they are not AAA-grade people, as republicans in the past were. On a basic, human level, most of them are basically sub-prime individuals.
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Postby CD » Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:03 am

oPseudonym wrote:
lzzrdgrrl wrote:Imma got a BIC finepoint and Imma gonna use it. Less partisan description.........

Financial journalist Howard Gold is devoting his blog to stirring the pot.....


Take one look at the Tea Party. These are the people running the country now, and they are not AAA-grade people, as republicans in the past were. On a basic, human level, most of them are basically sub-prime individuals.

:lol:

There you go! That's the strategy. Win 'em over with flattery oPsy!

:lol:

The good news is that Obama is turning into a fine AAA grade republican. :mrgreen:
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Postby Mr. Perfect » Fri Aug 05, 2011 6:46 am

oPseudonym wrote:
lzzrdgrrl wrote:Imma got a BIC finepoint and Imma gonna use it. Less partisan description.........

Financial journalist Howard Gold is devoting his blog to stirring the pot.....


Take one look at the Tea Party. These are the people running the country now, and they are not AAA-grade people, as republicans in the past were. On a basic, human level, most of them are basically sub-prime individuals.

Well one wonders, when you get beat by toothless vagabonds what does that make you?
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Postby hoosiernorm » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:08 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:Here is a look at the policy that Democrats followed:

Image[/img]
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Postby CD » Sun Aug 07, 2011 5:03 am

Tea Party Movement as Large as Nation’s Entire Liberal Population, Say Gallup Polls

The percentage of Americans who expressly state that they are supporters of the Tea Party movement is currently about as large at 22 percent of the population as the 21 percent who say they are liberals, according to recent but separate Gallup polls.

Meanwhile, at 41 percent of the population, according to Gallup, self-described conservatives outnumber both Tea Party movement supporters and liberals by nearly 2-to-1.

...

Hmmm..... 41% + 22% = ...
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Postby cassowary » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:13 am

Maybe some of the 21% are part of the 41%?
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Postby oPseudonym » Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:55 pm

CD wrote:Tea Party Movement as Large as Nation’s Entire Liberal Population, Say Gallup Polls

The percentage of Americans who expressly state that they are supporters of the Tea Party movement is currently about as large at 22 percent of the population as the 21 percent who say they are liberals, according to recent but separate Gallup polls.

Meanwhile, at 41 percent of the population, according to Gallup, self-described conservatives outnumber both Tea Party movement supporters and liberals by nearly 2-to-1.

...

Hmmm..... 41% + 22% = ...


That would add up to 63%; the trick is to not to tell the Tea Party folks what a Venn diagram is.
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Postby Faxogle » Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:16 pm

oPseudonym wrote:
CD wrote:Tea Party Movement as Large as Nation’s Entire Liberal Population, Say Gallup Polls

The percentage of Americans who expressly state that they are supporters of the Tea Party movement is currently about as large at 22 percent of the population as the 21 percent who say they are liberals, according to recent but separate Gallup polls.

Meanwhile, at 41 percent of the population, according to Gallup, self-described conservatives outnumber both Tea Party movement supporters and liberals by nearly 2-to-1.

...

Hmmm..... 41% + 22% = ...


That would add up to 63%; the trick is to not to tell the Tea Party folks what a Venn diagram is.


We know.
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Postby CD » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:01 am

Pretty decent Tea Party Synopsis...

...

This ignores the prehistory of the tea partiers. They’re largely core conservative voters who held their noses while spending ramped up for a decade under George W. Bush. Many rationalized their support for Bush against the backdrop of the War on Terror or their fondness for the man generally. But when Obama removed what little conservatism there was in Bush’s “compassionate conservatism,” massively hiking spending even more, they rebelled. Enough was enough.

Liberals see it as hypocrisy. Tea partiers see it as finally getting serious, which is why they keep threatening to “primary” any Republican who wavers from the new sobriety.

If you’ve ever known anyone with a serious addiction, the easiest thing for friends and family to do is pretend it’s not a big deal. Who wants to have a confrontation? Far easier to let things slide and have a good time. “Let’s have a nice Thanksgiving without any arguments, okay?”

The Tea Party is like the cousin who has been through AA and refuses to pretend any more. As a result, he spoils everyone’s good time. For the enablers — and others in denial — he’s the guy ruining everything, not the drunk.

Uncle Sam is the drunk, and the tea partiers are the annoyingly sober — and a bit self-righteous — cousin. Measured by spending and adjusted for inflation, the federal government has increased by more than 50 percent in ten years. Some have enabled the drunken spending; others continue to deny it’s even a problem.

The Tea Party is sounding the wake-up call. If America didn’t have a problem, then there really would be good cause to be furious with the forces of sobriety. Nobody likes a party pooper, especially the people hooked on partying.
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Postby Locke » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:25 am

CD wrote:Pretty decent Tea Party Synopsis...

...

This ignores the prehistory of the tea partiers. They’re largely core conservative voters who held their noses while spending ramped up for a decade under George W. Bush. Many rationalized their support for Bush against the backdrop of the War on Terror or their fondness for the man generally. But when Obama removed what little conservatism there was in Bush’s “compassionate conservatism,” massively hiking spending even more, they rebelled. Enough was enough.

Liberals see it as hypocrisy. Tea partiers see it as finally getting serious, which is why they keep threatening to “primary” any Republican who wavers from the new sobriety.

If you’ve ever known anyone with a serious addiction, the easiest thing for friends and family to do is pretend it’s not a big deal. Who wants to have a confrontation? Far easier to let things slide and have a good time. “Let’s have a nice Thanksgiving without any arguments, okay?”

The Tea Party is like the cousin who has been through AA and refuses to pretend any more. As a result, he spoils everyone’s good time. For the enablers — and others in denial — he’s the guy ruining everything, not the drunk.

Uncle Sam is the drunk, and the tea partiers are the annoyingly sober — and a bit self-righteous — cousin. Measured by spending and adjusted for inflation, the federal government has increased by more than 50 percent in ten years. Some have enabled the drunken spending; others continue to deny it’s even a problem.

The Tea Party is sounding the wake-up call. If America didn’t have a problem, then there really would be good cause to be furious with the forces of sobriety. Nobody likes a party pooper, especially the people hooked on partying.


My only quibble with this excerpt is that the first tea party rallies happened while Bush was still in office. Otherwise OK.
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Postby Hockey Dad » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:55 am

This article was something I liked, yesterday:

What Would Barry Goldwater Do?


Who was Barry Goldwater?

Goldwater was a true son of the West who was born in Arizona while it was still a territory. He was a businessman and Brigadier General in the Air Force reserve with a lifelong love of flying. He believed in rugged individualism, self-reliance, strict adherence to the Constitution, and limited government. But most of all he believed in freedom.

He didn’t have his words or actions poll-tested or focus grouped. He wasn’t some air blown pre-packaged talking point spouting politician.
He was the genuine article. When he said something he meant it and sometimes it got him into trouble. But he never issued clarifications or apologies after the fact like the weasel politicians do today. He spoke his mind and stood by his words.

The Tea Party in some ways represents the Goldwater forces of 47 years ago. Like him they are fighting against both the Democratic establishment but also the establishment in the Republican Party.

Just like Barry they want to change the way Washington does business not become a part of the entrenched “go along to get along” culture that pervades the nation’s capitol.

They have been told to be patient and be good soldiers as the old bulls make bad deals that fundamentally won’t change a thing and only preserves the old order.

And just like Goldwater, they have been vilified as extremists by both the establishment elitists in the Democrat Party and their handmaidens in the mainstream media. Meanwhile the establishment elitists in the Republican Party, who attend the same Georgetown cocktail parties, silently nod their approval, forgetting that without the Tea Party’s energy and votes they might not be the majority in the House.

Like the Tea Party, Goldwater believed in lower taxes but he believed that before you cut taxes you need to cut spending.

.... America didn’t think he was right in 1964 and they were not ready to listen to his message.

After the recent spectacle in Washington, I think they are ready to listen to the message now.

But who will deliver it?


Who?

Someone who can lead the country to shrug off so many decades of backsliding towards socialist morass.

8)
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Postby Nonc Hilare » Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:48 am

Hockey Dad wrote:This article was something I liked, yesterday:

What Would Barry Goldwater Do?


Who was Barry Goldwater?

Goldwater was a true son of the West who was born in Arizona while it was still a territory. He was a businessman and Brigadier General in the Air Force reserve with a lifelong love of flying. He believed in rugged individualism, self-reliance, strict adherence to the Constitution, and limited government. But most of all he believed in freedom.

He didn’t have his words or actions poll-tested or focus grouped. He wasn’t some air blown pre-packaged talking point spouting politician.
He was the genuine article. When he said something he meant it and sometimes it got him into trouble. But he never issued clarifications or apologies after the fact like the weasel politicians do today. He spoke his mind and stood by his words.

The Tea Party in some ways represents the Goldwater forces of 47 years ago. Like him they are fighting against both the Democratic establishment but also the establishment in the Republican Party.

Just like Barry they want to change the way Washington does business not become a part of the entrenched “go along to get along” culture that pervades the nation’s capitol.

They have been told to be patient and be good soldiers as the old bulls make bad deals that fundamentally won’t change a thing and only preserves the old order.

And just like Goldwater, they have been vilified as extremists by both the establishment elitists in the Democrat Party and their handmaidens in the mainstream media. Meanwhile the establishment elitists in the Republican Party, who attend the same Georgetown cocktail parties, silently nod their approval, forgetting that without the Tea Party’s energy and votes they might not be the majority in the House.

Like the Tea Party, Goldwater believed in lower taxes but he believed that before you cut taxes you need to cut spending.

.... America didn’t think he was right in 1964 and they were not ready to listen to his message.

After the recent spectacle in Washington, I think they are ready to listen to the message now.

But who will deliver it?


Who?

Someone who can lead the country to shrug off so many decades of backsliding towards socialist morass.

8)


The tea party is not at all like Goldwater. It is a stalking horse for the PR remake of the GOP and nothing more.
When it comes down to voting, the tea party toddles along hand-in-hand with the traditional GOP.
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